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Frank and Stan Chats

Frank and Stan Chats

By: Frank Norris and Stan Johnson
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Summary

Frank Norris and Stan Johnson have been friends since 1995. Both have had successful and lengthy careers in education. Frank was a very senior HMI with Ofsted for 11 years and was the CEO of the Coop Academies Trust for 6 years. Stan was seconded to Ofsted for a year and then returned to headship before working as a senior adviser with Lancashire LA. He has latterly led a successful education consultancy in the North West. Prior to Covid-19, the two gents would meet in Manchester for a pint or two but the pandemic put an end to that. On 1 May 2020, they recorded their first video chat as a way of recording their emotions and reactions to the pandemic. After putting the video on Youtube as a safe place to store it they realised that some followers began to appear. Now, with nearly 180 episodes and having chatted to Professors, CEOs, journalists, teachers, former HMI, education thinkers and Frank's Key Stage 1 leading daughter they have a loyal following and a rapidly increasing number of viewers. The reach of the Frank and Stan Chat stretches from Bogota to Ottawa to Greece and their first Live Edition was recorded in front of nearly 200 Headteachers in York. The Chats are not undertaken to attract followers or for financial reward (nothing is received and nothing will be received). It is a way of airing views on education matters between two professional friends with a focus on leadership. We are honoured to be invited to host the weekly chats on the Leader-connect website www.leader-connect.co.uk. The chats helped the gents get through the pandemic and they are delighted that they have been enjoyed by others and appear to have helped in developing leadership thought and actions. If you fancy being a guest then just reach out. We never post a video unless the guest is comfortable with it. So, it is a relatively risk-free environment. Thank you. Frank and Stan. PS. We were honoured to be identified as one of the Top 50 education and leadership podcasts in THE WORLD!!! We can't believe it, but it appears to be true.

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© 2023 Frank and Stan Chats
Episodes
  • Frank and Stan Chat No. 255
    May 13 2026

    Frank began working with Alice when she invited him to be the co-leader of a leadership programme with her for Forum Strategy. They struck it off straight away and enjoyed a few years collaborating and sharing connections to improve the impact of their leadership work. Alice is driven by a desire to share and listen to others and her relaxed approach comes across very strongly in this week’s chat. She has recently commenced a new role away from Forum Strategy so it was good to catch up.


    Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the recent SPOTLIGHT chat with Malcolm Greenhalgh who challenged us to think more carefully on the importance of transition and the need for, what he called ‘Inclusive Flexibility’. Stan digs into the available research to determine whether the aspects he considers to be fundamental to good transition are borne out. He confirms they are but reflects on the academic descriptions used to explain quite straightforward approaches.


    Alice considers the recent local election results and their potential for change in the short and longer term for education and those leading schools, Colleges and settings. We consider whether the achievements of the current government have been explained well enough and Frank expresses a belief that a lack of radical approaches to press and media ownership are not helping.


    Frank brings the chat to a close by reflecting on the PM’s work and how he is trying to manage conflicting advice. He relates this to the work of a SLT in schools where there is a need for private dissent but public support for leaders. If this is eroded then those being led begin to feel an erosion of power and influence.


    Frank and Stan found the chat fascinating. Alice was a great guest and brought the best out of the hosts. She will be back in w few weeks as a SPOTLIGHT Guest with another colleague, and we can’t wait.


    Enjoy.

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    37 mins
  • Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No. 28
    May 7 2026

    An absolute privilege to be joined by Malcolm Greenhalgh, a former Primary school teacher who went on to lead one of England's largest independent inspection companies contracted to Ofsted and is now leading Incyte, a school improvement consultancy. Malcolm provided us with a helpful steer on what he was going to discuss and Ive copied it here.

    Inclusive Flexibility

    Like most I chat to about family and particularly about our children and grandchildren the chat always turns to the concerns we have about their future. And, in particular, how are they going to survive in such a dynamic world influenced by the impact of AI on the perception of truth, or how international criminal gangs are taking control over the lives of the average hard working person. The chats are always tinged with a significant sense of sadness as our society seems to be walking blindly into a state of chaos where there is great disregard for the laws created to ensure the world we live in is civilised and focussed on the well-being of all rather than well-being of some. There is also a sense of dismay when the chat turns to politics which also seems to focus on those that operate on personal gain rather than working together harmoniously for the well-being of all.


    However, it is so easy to criticise but much harder to identify well thought out solutions to these mega issues.


    Those of us in education may feel a great burden on our shoulders to provide our pupils with hope for a successful future in life that focuses on a positive contribution to society as a whole rather than a negative one. After all, isn’t this why we became involved in education in the first place?

    To achieve this altruistic goal is a conundrum that educationalists around the world are faced with. Most fall into a trap of identifying solutions based on the same start point as we have always started from and then struggling to find the answers that will ensure our system of education is inclusive, equitable and fair, ensuring all pupils have the chance to achieve the goal of making a positive impact on society as a whole. The result is that we simply despair that we are not achieving what we set out to achieve.


    In England, I always felt a sense of positivity during the 20th century and early part of the 21st century that we were moving in the right direction, we were making changes that did give all our pupils a fair chance of finding a life after school that they could use their skills, knowledge and understanding to make the positive contribution to society that we so want them to make enabling them to live a happy and fulfilled life. Yes, we did make mistakes when experimenting with new approaches to create an equitable system, but the direction towards the goal was always a positive one in the end.


    However, the 100 years or so of progression came to an abrupt decline after the expert panel’s divisive conclusions in 2012 and the will of Gove to turn the education clock back to something more akin to Victorian education principles rather than those needed in a modern, fast moving world.


    Although many countries around the world follow a similar process of schooling there are others that are taking decisions that will help to prepare the current population of pupils for the world they will meet when they leave full-time education.


    What we need to consider in England is how we change our education system into one that has inclusivity and equity at its heart and meets the decisive individual needs of very different pupils.

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    37 mins
  • Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT Edition No. 27
    Apr 29 2026

    It is a privilege to have the chance to chat colleagues who have had impressive careers and are now making a difference through their support for others on their leadership journey. Today, we chatted to Glyn Potts, a former Headteacher who has been a guest while a headteacher on our weekly chat. He was joined by Neil Jurd, the former military senior officer and author of The Leadership Book and a previous guest. Neil has developed the Leader-Connect online platform, and both are now collaborating on a new leadership programme for school leadership teams.


    The chat covers their work in developing the new leadership programme and why we all feel that many existing programmes do not prepare senior leaders well enough for the ‘white heat’ moments they encounter. Glyn and Neil explain how they have recently worked with the entire senior leadership team at Dallam School, using it as an example, and what they believe staff have gained from the short and intense development programme. Oh, by the way, their programme leads to a formal qualification from the Institute of Leadership.


    Enjoy.

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    33 mins
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