Description: Three years ago, Katherine May gave us a language for something many of us experience but rarely know how to name: wintering. Those seasons of life when everything slows down. When grief arrives. When burnout catches up with us. When illness, loss, caregiving, parenting challenges, or unexpected change force us to stop and reconsider how we're living. As part of our Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife series, we're revisiting this unforgettable conversation because Katherine's wisdom feels even more relevant today than it did when it first aired. Together, Jen and Katherine explore what it means to stop treating ourselves like machines and start honoring our humanity. They discuss the value of retreat, the necessity of rest, and why healing cannot be rushed. Katherine challenges the cultural pressure to push through difficult seasons and instead invites us to trust that growth is still happening beneath the surface—even when life appears dormant. Nestled in this conversation is a gentle reminder that joy isn't always found by adding more. Sometimes it emerges when we create space. Space for solitude. Space for beauty. Space to notice what's growing quietly within us. If you've been feeling weary, stretched thin, or ready to step off the hamster wheel for a moment, this episode offers a different path forward—one marked by grace, patience, and the courage to rest before collapse forces it upon us. In this very gentle and generous conversation, you’ll hear:

• Why every life includes seasons of "wintering"
• The difference between retreat and isolation
• How beauty sustains us during difficult seasons
• Why sadness isn't something to fix
• Practical ways to create restorative space in everyday life
• What it means to trust the season you're in Sometimes the most sacred yes isn't a leap forward. It's permission to pause. Thought-provoking Quotes:
• "You can trust this space, and you can trust your sadness. It's telling you something. You don't have to run away from it. You can be sad. You can handle being sad. What you can't handle is pretending not to be sad and being sad anyway." — Katherine May
• "There is a process of healing, and it's also a process of change. Those things will take a certain amount of time whatever you do. You are not doing anything wrong if you're still suffering a week later, a month later, or six months later." — Katherine May
• "If you can lean into that space and accept it rather than fight it, you will spare yourself a lot of pain." — Katherine May
• "People who've gone through major winters always seem to look back and say, 'I wouldn't have not gone through it if it meant I couldn't be who I am now.'" — Katherine May
• "Look for beauty in that space. Reacquaint yourself with your gut feeling that leads you toward what you find beautiful and awe-inspiring." — Katherine May Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
• [Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times](https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/wintering/?utm_source=chatgpt.com) by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/wintering/
• [Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age](https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/enchantment/?utm_source=chatgpt.com) by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/enchantment/
• [The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch](

Description:

In this deeply personal solo episode, Jen takes us to the place where this journey began: Me Camp. What started as a spontaneous trip to coastal Maine during one of the hardest seasons of her life became an annual practice of restoration, adventure, healing, and joy. Six summers later, as she arrives in a tiny lakeside town in Ontario for another month of Me Camp, she's reflecting on the small word that changed everything: yes.

This month, we'll be exploring what it means to reclaim joy, embrace rest, honor our desires, and create lives that are not just productive—but deeply satisfying.

It's time to discover your own Sacred Yes.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “MeCamp changed my life. I’m not being demonstrative or exaggerating. It's where the ‘Sacred Yes’ got its first footing.” – Jen Hatmaker
• “I keep my heart open to whatever's possible. Who could I meet? What could I experience? Where could I go? What can I see? And when people are like, hey, do you wanna…? The answer's yes. And so that sacred yes got sort of imprinted on my heart.” – Jen Hatmaker
• “I feel the weight of irresponsible yeses that should have been no's.” – Jen Hatmaker

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• MeCamp 2026 Announcement -
• Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4xzBo5n
• Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/
• Join the Awake Collective - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/p/the-awake-collective
• Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club

Connect with Jen!
Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

Description: As part of our Freedom & Flourishing series this Pride Month, we're revisiting the most downloaded episode in the history of For the Love—a conversation that has continued to ripple through families, friendships, and faith communities for years after it first aired.

Six years ago, Jen sat down with her daughter Sydney to hand her the microphone and invite her to tell her own story in her own words. What followed was a brave, tender, and deeply honest conversation about growing up gay in the church, loving Jesus while feeling afraid and alone, and finding the courage to embrace the fullness of who you are.

Sydney shares what it was like to navigate faith and identity as a young person, the messages she received from churches and Christian leaders, and the real impact those messages have on LGBTQIA+ kids sitting quietly in pews every Sunday. Together, Jen and Sydney discuss what true allyship requires, why affirmation matters, and how we can create homes, communities, and faith spaces where people are cherished exactly as they are.

In this episode:

• Sydney shares her journey of growing up gay within a Christian family and faith community
• A candid conversation about faith, identity, and belonging
• What churches and Christian leaders need to understand about LGBTQIA+ youth
• Why allyship requires more than acceptance—it requires action
• A call to advocate for and protect transgender people, who often face the greatest vulnerability
• How creating safe, welcoming spaces helps all people flourish

Content Note: This episode includes discussion of the mental health challenges, isolation, and discrimination often experienced by LGBTQIA+ youth.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• "I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all." — Sydney Hatmaker
• "It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God." — Sydney Hatmaker
• "The biggest act of allyship you can make is using your voice in places where marginalized people feel less safe." — Sydney Hatmaker

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• This Is How It Always Is by Laurie Frankel — https://www.lauriefrankel.net/this-is-how-it-always-is.html
• Human Rights Campaign LGBTQ+ Youth Research — https://www.thehrcfoundation.org/reports/collections/youth-report-collection
• HRC & University of Connecticut LGBTQ+ Youth Study — https://reports.hrc.org/2023-lgbtq-youth-report

Connect with Jen!
Website: https://jenhatmaker.com/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

Description:
For 15 years, Tim Schraeder Rodriguez quietly shaped the digital face of some of the biggest names in evangelical Christianity — Willow Creek, Hillsong, Elevation — helping mega-churches reach millions with a message of radical welcome. The painful irony? He was living proof of their unspoken rules. Useful in the shadows. Unacceptable in the light.

In this conversation, Tim joins Jen and Amy to talk about his new memoir, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and the full arc of his story: growing up adopted with a sense of "anxious apartness," signing the purity pledge as a kid who already knew he was gay, eight years in the loosely-held and deeply damaging world of conversion therapy, and eventually a breaking point that brought him to his knees — and then, slowly, to himself.

Today, the conversation swirls around what conversion therapy actually looks like from the inside (football coaches, Mary Kay consultants, and all), the complicated grief of leaving a community that was also your career and your family, how the Pulse Orlando shooting became Tim's personal line in the sand, and what it took to find his way back to faith — this time, in church basements with other sober queer people finding a God of their own understanding.

They also get into the current state of conversion therapy in America, why it's more active and accessible than most people realize, and what the rest of us — regular people who just live on their street and go to their jobs — can actually do about it.

This one is hard and beautiful and hopeful. Don't miss it.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

★ "I was living proof of their unspoken rules. I was useful in the shadows, but unacceptable in the light." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "It really kind of disintegrates you in body, mind and spirit because you're acting and being something and someone that you're not." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "Freedom wasn't finally becoming who they said I was supposed to be, but finally embracing who I believe God created me to be." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "More transformation was happening in church basements than was ever happening upstairs." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "I finally feel like I'm living from a place of honesty and truth. I sense and feel God's presence with me today now more as an openly gay man than I ever did in the years I was in conversion therapy." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

➢ Dissenting Harmony - Amy’s Rage Choir - https://dissentingharmony.betterworld.org/➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout: A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging by Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez - https://amzn.to/48smCCv➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout audiobook - https://amzn.to/3OZULmD➢ Exodus International - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_International➢ The Trevor Project — thetrevorproject.org➢ ...

Description:
As we celebrate Juneteenth, Jen sits down with writer, activist, theologian, and longtime friend Lisa Sharon Harper for a conversation that’s equal parts history lesson, spiritual challenge, and call to action. Together, they explore the often-overlooked story of Juneteenth—not just the delayed news of emancipation in Texas, but the deeper history of freedom promised, denied, and fought for across generations.

Fresh from a powerful march across Selma’s Edmund Pettus Bridge, Lisa reflects on what it means to stand in the footsteps of civil rights heroes while confronting the realities of the present moment. Drawing from her own family’s legacy of resistance, she shares why her hope no longer rests in institutions, laws, or political systems, but in ordinary people willing to bend the arc of history toward justice.

The conversation moves from the unfinished work of voting rights to the spiritual courage required for this cultural moment. As Lisa puts it, perhaps our task is not simply to recover what has been lost, but to become “the architects of the next America.”

Whether you’re marking Juneteenth, wrestling with questions about democracy and belonging, or searching for hope in uncertain times, this conversation is a timely reminder that freedom has always depended on people willing to imagine—and build—something better.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

★ “The Supreme Court has effectively placed us back into the time of Plessy vs Ferguson, which said separate and equal is okay, the time of even Dred Scott, which says a black man has no rights that a white man need abide by. That’s what they’re gunning for.”

★ In the past, my hope was in the law. In the past, my hope was in the dream of America. My hope was in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights. My hope was in the church. But what I’m learning is that the arc of the moral universe has bent toward justice because people have bent it.”

★ “What can they do to us? What can they do? They can put us in jail. God is there. They can deport us. God will be there. They can kill us. And God will be there. So what can they do? They can't do anything to us. Not really.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

➢ (The Gospel of Shalom) Unequally Saved: The Church’s Role in Racism with Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-08/unequally-saved-the-churchs-role-in-racism-with-lisa-sharon-harper/

➢ Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All by Lisa Sharon Harper - https://amzn.to/43LTXW1

➢ “All Roads Lead To The South” Rally - https://blackpowerwarroom.com/dayofaction/

➢ A Resistance History of the United States by Tad Stoermer - https://amzn.to/4dK3RNS

➢ Amazing Grace | William Wilberforce film - https ...

Description:It's Pride Month, and we couldn't think of a better time to bring back one of our most beloved episodes. Sara Cunningham — founder of Free Mom Hugs — first joined Jen back in 2018, when she was a Christian mom from Oklahoma City who had just started showing up at Pride parades with a handmade sign and a button. A lot has happened since then.

What began as one mom extending her arms to strangers has grown into a global movement. Free Mom Hugs now trains advocates, lobbies legislatures, and shows up year after year for LGBTQIA+ people whose own families walked away. Sara hasn't just built an organization — she's built a lifeline.

In this conversation, Sara and Jen revisit the journey that started it all: how Sara moved from the church to the Pride parade without losing her faith, what it meant for her son Parker to come out into a family still finding its footing, and how the stories of people who had lost everything — their families, their churches, their sense of belonging — fell into her arms and changed the course of her life.

They also talk about what it takes to turn personal pain into structural change, and why showing up — physically, politically, and relationally — for the LGBTQIA+ community matters more than ever right now.

This one is worth every minute. Enjoy this encore conversation with our beloved friend, Sara Cunningham!

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “No one has searched for God more than the Gay Christian.” – Sara Cunningham

• “The first drag show that I ever went to, when I crossed the threshold, I really thought lightning might strike. But, I realized these are beautiful people raising money for homeless LGBTQ youth. And I was so moved by that. I had it totally wrong. I believed a lie that kept me from some of the most beautiful experiences I’ve had in my life.” – Sara Cunningham

• “I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• LGBTQIA MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/parenting-lgbtqia-teens-tweens

• Mama Bears - https://www.realmamabears.org/

• FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spring-back-series-living-proudly-with-sydney-hatmaker/id1258388821?i=1000523761007

• Kai Shappley’s Website - https://kaishappley.com/

• Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference - https://freemomhugs.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.ViewPage&pageId=571

• Kimberly Shappley’s Website - ...

Description:If you grew up on Christian music in the '90s, there's a good chance Testify to Love wasn't just a hit song—it was the soundtrack to a season of your life.

Three decades after Avalon first released the iconic anthem, Jen sits down with original Avalon member Michael Passons, longtime Avalon vocalist Melissa Greene, and country music star Ty Herndon to talk about the remarkable re-release of a song that has found new meaning for a new generation.

But this isn't simply a conversation about music. It's the untold story behind one of CCM's most beloved songs.

Michael shares the painful reality of losing his place in Avalon after coming out as gay. Melissa reflects on the faith journey that transformed her understanding of inclusion and belonging. Ty opens up about his own path through addiction, recovery, faith, and finally living fully and truthfully as himself. Together, they revisit the song that connected millions of listeners and explore why its message of love, acceptance, and human dignity feels more relevant now than ever.

Filled with laughter, tears, hard-earned wisdom, and more than a few moments that will leave you reaching for the tissues, this conversation is a beautiful testament to friendship, healing, and the courage it takes to live loud.

Whether Testify to Love has been on your playlist for thirty years or you're hearing its story for the first time, this episode is a powerful reminder that love's truest testimony is not who it excludes—but who it embraces.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “I lost my community, my family, my career, all within a couple of seconds. That’s a lot to process.” - Michael Passons

• "The people I loved and the fullness of their humanity butted up against my theological positions. I had to ask myself: Do I keep creating fences and becoming more exclusive? Or could it be that my views of God, humanity, and the world need to change?" – Melissa Greene

• "What I've noticed in the lives of people who have allowed themselves to evolve and change their mind is that that process pulls us toward an expansiveness that is just magical." - Jen Hatmaker

• “You don't live in the church, the church lives in you. You have an opportunity right now to start your own church and decide who sits at your table. No one can kick you out of your own church.” - Ty Herndon

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Avalon - https://www.avalonthegroup.com/

• Carman - https://carman.org/

• Stephen Curtis Chapman - https://store.stevencurtischapman.com/

• Kirk Franklin - https://kirkfranklin.com/

• Michael’s Instagram Reel - https://www.instagram.com/reels/DY6_JF6BDyO/

• Dottie Rambo - https://www.dottierambo.net/

• Testify to Love - https://music.apple.com/us/song/testify-to-love-feat-melissa-greene/1893435396

• Testify to Love video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7IPvr6b8s
  

Melissa’s Links:

Website - https://www.melissagreene.net

We were supposed to talk about Deacon King Kong. We did not.

When Jen sat down with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist James McBride to discuss the Jen Hatmaker Book Club's May selection, the conversation took a hard left turn into something far richer — a wide-ranging tour through one of the most remarkable lives in American letters.

James opens up about a scrappy and troubled adolescence in Brooklyn, getting straightened out in the heat of the Louisville, Kentucky summers, and the music that quite literally saved him. He reminisces about touring Europe as a young musician and playing saxophone alongside Stevie Ray Vaughan at Antone's in Austin, traveling with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour as a young journalist, surviving the Boston Globe's newsroom in the 1980s, writing songs for Anita Baker and Grover Washington, working with Quincy Jones, and getting dressed down by Harry Belafonte in a writers' room. Along the way, he reflects on race, art, faith, forgiveness, music, storytelling, old cars, and why the best writers are simply the people paying closest attention. He also shares what gives him hope about America right now — and it might surprise you.

Of course, we touch on Deacon King Kong—its unforgettable characters, humor, and heart—but this conversation became something even bigger: a portrait of the life experiences that shaped the storyteller behind the book.

Come for the book club discussion. Stay for one of the most fascinating conversations Jen has had in a long time.

Oh, and Deacon King Kong is a masterpiece. You should absolutely read it.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmcbrideauthor/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JamesMcBrideAuthor/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “I didn’t grow up wanting to be a writer. We were just concerned about eating.” – James McBride★ “Years and years of playing $50, $75, $100 gigs prepares you for a life of good struggle.” – James McBride★ “People are trying to do their best. Just because you don’t agree with them, it doesn’t mean they’re not trying to do their best.” – James McBride★ “We have work to do and I'm proud of those of us who are doing it. And for those of us who are not, maybe their children will come to it or maybe they won't. The struggle is a beautiful thing.” – James McBride➢ Miracle at St. Anna (Spike Lee movie) - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/miracle-at-st-anna/➢ The Good Lord Bird: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4eJBPDc➢ The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4d74l0a➢ Deacon King Kong: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4uLm4QP➢